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Law Grad with LLM Lands Just One Job Interview from 300 Resumés

Posted Dec 3, 2008, 09:29 am CST
By Debra Cassens Weiss

The job market for law graduates was relatively strong for 10 years—so strong, in fact, that last year, 92 percent of legal grads found jobs in their field, the strongest showing in two decades.

This year, though, things are different, CNNMoney.com reports. For the first time in recent history, the job market is contracting. That’s bad news for the more than 150,000 students in law school.

Andrew Magdy is an example. He has a law degree from Michigan State and an LLM in taxation from Washington University—and $150,000 in student loans, the CNN story says. The first payment is due this month.

Magdy told the publication he sent out about 300 resumes, but landed just one job interview. "Every day I send out resumés, both electronically and through the mail, and every day I receive responses that the law firms are not currently hiring," he said.

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Comments

  1. Posted by Old News - 1 month, 3 days, 14 hours, 2 minutes ago

    This happened to me from 2004-2008.  I’m an ‘07 grad who sent out over 650 resumes in four years before finally landing an interview at a firm.  That firm dissolved. 

    ABA needs to stop legal outsourcing and stop accrediting bad schools.

  2. Posted by B. McLeod - 1 month, 3 days, 11 hours, 43 minutes ago

    I won’t say times are good for law students, but remember that every one of those firms to whom you sent your resumes began at some point with one or a few lawyers hanging out a shingle.  What has been done by others can be done by you.  Don’t look to the ABA to solve your problems.  If you graduated a good law school, you have what you need.  Take charge of your destiny.

  3. Posted by poor marketing - 1 month, 3 days, 5 hours, 29 minutes ago

    Also, keep in mind that networking and personal connections are much more effective than just mailing resumes out.  Without intending to boast, I have gotten at least an interview at every place I’ve applied.

  4. Posted by Mmoore80 - 1 month, 2 days, 16 hours, 44 minutes ago

    Last year 92% of legal grads found jobs in their field?

    Wow, where does the ABA pull these numbers out of?

  5. Posted by ABA in Wonderland - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 49 minutes ago

    92%?  Last year? Really?  The ABA must be lost in wonderland, again. Denial doesn’t pay for student loans or mortgages or anything, as far as I can tell.  Remarket?  What market? 

    Only super intelligent, charismatic, rock star Presidential candidates can bank on hope.  The 40k law grads this year…..  Time to explore job options in Dubai and Sao Paolo….

  6. Posted by paul - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 48 minutes ago

    Mmoore80, I’m sure the 92% figure is correct, but “in their field” also probably covers those contract positions doing eye-and-mind-numbing document review that trained monkeys with a pre-school diploma could do (do I sound bitter?).

  7. Posted by bd - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Poor s.o.b.  Join the crowd.

  8. Posted by karen - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 28 minutes ago

    Andrew should instead look to the Big 4 public accounting firms for a job.  A job in such a firm won’t pay as much as a law firm, but it’s better than no job.  With an LLM in taxation, a job in public accounting could be a sensible alternative, especially if he could get a position consulting in mergers and acquisitions or international taxation.

  9. Posted by George H Rutrough - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes ago

    The ABA and the law schools need to realize we have trained and graduated way too many lawyers over the past 10-15 years.  Acceptance or available seats into law schools need to decrease in a scaling method over the next 5-10 years. There are just to many lawyers in our current society, and we are decreasing our own value by continuing to train new attorneys. Very few older attorneys retire. Given today’s life expectancy and current retirement accounts demise, I expect attorneys to practice as long as they possibly can - probably longer than they should. Result - we have to many lawyers these days.

  10. Posted by Hang out a shingle? - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Hang out a shingle? Seriously?

    This guy can’t make his student loan payments.  Is he to turn to the SBA to borrow more money? 

    At the very least, and most importantly because he has no “real” legal experience, he’ll need to be able to pay for malpractice insurance.

  11. Posted by Dave Sergi - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 18 minutes ago

    When I started my career in a similarly bad time period in the 80’s things were bad and I was creative. All I seem to hear now from young law grads is complaining and wanting things on a silver platter. I know that there is a glut know, but my firms business model has always been to work with young lawyers who need work while getting their practices going. Pound the pavements with the small firms offering yourself as the “whatever it is that you like that the small firm or solo does not do” person. If I had a tax/business lawyer show up I might just have paying work for her or him

  12. Posted by didthesamething - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 16 minutes ago

    The guy needs to look for in house positions.  Corps. are still hiring staff counsel.  He won’t make $100K to start but he can also get a general forberance on his student loans.

  13. Posted by Steve - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 9 minutes ago

    I attended a tier 3 my first year b/c I did not get into the school of first choice.  I transferred to a tier 2 for 2 & 3L years.  I finished near top third of my class.  I live in the midwest and got 5 interviews from about 30-35 resumes.  I spent a lot of time networking while sending out resumes to places I knew were hiring.  After the firms that posted hirings came to a screeching halt, I researched smaller firms with 3-10 attorneys and then snail mailed resumes and cover letters.  I tried to find a common thread between my internship experience and interests and the firms I sent resumes to (it also helps to apply to firms with partners that are alum from the school you graduated at).  The ironic thing is, the resumes I “cold mailed” to the smaller firms got me the interview that landed the job I am in now, albeit for a shockingly low salary.  I know it is tough out there and I do not envy those still looking.  But you have to stay positive, undiscouraged, and move on to other firms (maybe in smaller towns or other states).  I know that is easier said than done, and I know there are way too many law grads still looking.  But I hope this posting finds someone well out there.

  14. Posted by Mitch Fargis - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 5 minutes ago

    I echo you, Mr. Sergi.  I entered the 80’s with my JD and LLM and quickly grew frustrated pounding on law firm doors.  I became a poster child for what you can do with a law degree.  I started in a family office, taught graduate school, managed a trust department and ran a bank.  To “poor marketing”‘s point above, I never found a job by sending out resumes, it was always by working my network (which right out of school was admittedly small).  I should also mention that I was recently laid off and am again working my network for the next opportunity.

  15. Posted by not enoughinfo - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 4 minutes ago

    There isn’t enough info in the story.  What was the graduate’s GPA ?  Did he just barely graduate ?  Is he a K-thru-JD without even a summer internship for experience ?  Are his cover letters and writing sample garbage ?  We do not know.  All of these could explain why he isn’t competitive on paper.  Some law students might have thought the last few euphoric years meant they did not have to work hard at school.  Those students may be in trouble now.

  16. Posted by Philip M. Markella - 1 month, 2 days, 15 hours, 4 minutes ago

    The market is difficult for the solos as well. I have been solo for 12 years and it seems that the market gets tougher every month. Too many lawyers add to the devaluation of our wervices because there is always someone who will provide a service for less. But at the end of the day, I still do better financially on my own then if I went to a firm. Stay the course, weather the storm. THis too shall pass.

  17. Posted by Debbie - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 55 minutes ago

    It sucks.  I’ve been there.  Lenders will work with you on the loans, just don’t wait until the last minute to talk to them..  Next, take a job, any job.  Go to a legal temp agency and do whatever mind numbing task they give you.  In your free time go to Bar Association events, free seminars, start networking and come up with a Plan B, Plan C, etc.  .

  18. Posted by BC - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes ago

    I agree with everyone that is complaining about the glut of attorneys that law schools keep accepting and churning out.  My small tier 4 school has recently doubled the incoming class size of 1Ls.  During my 3L year a few years ago, they actually did not have enough seatsfor the students in the classrooms, and they had to improvise for a few weeks before they were able to get the funding to buy new tables and chairs.  At one point, students were sitting on the ground. 

    I argue that it is unethical for law schools and universities to be accepting so many law school students on a yearly basis. How can you take $150,000 from students for three years of education, and then wish them luck as they enter a horrible job market with little to no job prospects available?  If your grads are having trouble finding jobs in their field (and the 92% is HIGHLY suspect) then there should be no reason to take on an additional 20 students the following year (or 100 as the case was for my school). 

    As for Andrew above, I feel your pain.  I’m sure he did apply to the big 4 accounting firms.  I had a friend who received his LLM in Tax from BU, and he couldn’t land a job with the Big 4.  He’s at a smaller tax firm, but it was a tough job search for him, and he was unemployed for close to seven months before he found something.  Good luck, buddy.

  19. Posted by Thanks ABA - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes ago

    I agree with the comment that the ABA is part of the problem here. They’ve allowed too many bad law schools to be created. What they should do is start closing down law schools where the students have low bar pass rates. Trim the fat and lessen the amount of new lawyers with tons of debt and no job prospects..

  20. Posted by Annonymous - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 33 minutes ago

    I sense the problem is the apparent K-thru-LL.M history.  That would explain the $150,000 in student loans.  I sense there were no summer jobs, paid internsips, military service (G.I. Bill benefits) or other pre-law school   employment, or employment concurrent with law school, with even meager savings that could be applied toward tuition or living expenses.

  21. Posted by Anonymous - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 29 minutes ago

    The ABA neither creates law schools nor shuts them down.  The ABA does accredit those it finds fit under its guidelines.  The several law schools in California that cannot achieve accreditation by the ABA never sought approval to be created - and some of the schools couldn’t care less what the ABA thinks.

  22. Posted by Michigan Resident - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 21 minutes ago

    Problem #1 = Michigan State.  Who knew they had a law school?  Problem #2 = 300 resume email blitz.  Employers love resume spam.

  23. Posted by Patrick - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes ago

    There are always jobs out there for good and talented people.  You don’t see any Harvard grads complaining.  Instead, its people from low level schools who never should have gone to law school.

  24. Posted by ABA is a monopoly - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 17 minutes ago

    Some guy in Mass., that graduated from Concord LS, an internet school not accredited by the ABA, just won the right to sit for the MA bar exam, which does not allow non ABA or internet grads to sit for the BAR. In that ruling ht judges mentioned that ABA is looking into accrediting correspondence schools. Further 4 grads from concord recently were admitted to the Supreme Court to the US. ABA IS A SHAM. The DOJ is onto them.

  25. Posted by OldShark - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 16 minutes ago

    The ABA is a strange group.  They seem to represent the interests of the liberal aspects of the profession and the big firms.  Both want more lawyers.  Large firms want more cattle to choose from.  Liberals think a law degree is a ticket out of poverty.

    And by the way, it’s a profit thing.  Licencing additional law schools is a profit center for the ABA.  There will be no end to the creation of additional schools or the knighting of more attorneys.  The ABA wants it; the big firms want it; and the liberals in Chicago who run the thing both profit and think they are doing righteous work.

    The last 10 years has seen an explosion of the numbers of attorneys disbarred, suspended, and sanctioned.  This is a result of the profession trying to trim the heard because the schools and ABA keep pumping out lawyers.  I think most would agree this is not a benefit to the lawyers with huge loans or the public.

  26. Posted by Patrick - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes ago

    More lawyers means more competition which means lower rates.  That is GOOD for the public.

  27. Posted by Jason - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 9 minutes ago

    I agree with #26.  Hourly rates are way too high at most firms.  There is no reason to ever pay $500 or more an hour for legal work.

  28. Posted by ABA is a Monoploly - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 8 minutes ago

    To many attorneys? for who? Try telling that to middle class America that can’t afford to hire an atty….All these new attorneys only want to make $160,000 a year that the shiny law school brochure told them they could make to justify the $150,000 tuition. I say open more schools and let the market determine what attorneys should make.

  29. Posted by Marilyn Mann - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes ago

    My impression is that people who get an L.L.M. are usually trying to compensate for something (e.g., mediocre grades and/or law school).  I work at a federal agency and applicants with L.L.M.s in the area of law relevant to my agency really don’t get much, if any, advantage from having that degree.  (After all, very few people doing the hiring have an L.L.M. so why would they hire someone who has a paper credential that they don’t have?)  Experience, law school, grades, interpersonal skills, references—those are the things that count.  And, I agree, the fact that he went to law school where he did indicates he wasn’t able to get into a better law school, like University of Michigan, for instance.

  30. Posted by ABA is a monopoly - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes ago

    I think that the ABA should stop accrediting law schools period. Then maybe the tuition for law school won’t put kids into $150,000 worth of debt. Maybe then the $35,000 that law grads are worth when they graduate could be enough to pay lower tuitions. Another look at law grads is that they have a sense of entitlement, they think that they are worth a large salary because they made the wrong choice by choosing to go to law school, thinking that they are going to get paid $160,000 salaries, because the law school tricked them into believing that is what they were going to be making when they graduate. This is the next credit crisis, just like in Wall St. you have the CDS, here you have the law school debt. The brochures law schools use to lure kids should be regulated and confirmed to prove that 98% got offers and the 90 % make $90K. Law schools usually only use selective groups to rely on.

  31. Posted by Akman - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours, 1 minute ago

    Why would I want to spend 7 years in college to earn $35,000?  We deserve $160,000 a year and now that Obama is president, everyone will make more money.

  32. Posted by MIchigan State Law Student - 1 month, 2 days, 14 hours ago

    To Michigan Resident:

    Problem #1 is NOT MSU’s Law School. MSU College of Law, Formerly Detroit College of Law, has been around for over 100 years, and a with the recent partnership with Michigan State University (1999), is only growing in notoriety. 

    In addition, problem #2, if you’ll read the student’s statement, he not only used the email, but also used snail mail.  Typically employers specify how they want applicants to send materials; email is an acceptable form and is not considered SPAM…

    Cheers.

  33. Posted by eliz - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes ago

    ABA - PLEASE stop accrediting law schools. Please.  Stop.

  34. Posted by USC - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes ago

    What tier is MSU in?

  35. Posted by Rich F. - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes ago

    I might have been one of the 300 firms who received a resume.  It’s easy to spot “blanket” mailings and “canned” resumes, and they go straight into the trash can.  I have received resumes with 26 spelling errors; resumes addressed to “Dear Hiring Partner,” and resumes that made me wonder why they were ever sent to me in the first place, e.g., a person whose entire life and education has been in the city of St. Louis, sending a resume to a tiny firm in a little Pennsylvania town 1,000 miles away.
    I compiled a list of how not to get a job, but it’s too long to print here.
    Andy, you should have established some sort of relationship with a law office when you started law school.  It’s too late for that now, but if you have any hope for landing a job, you have to personalize your resume.  Research each firm to which you are applying; know something about it; find a common interest; let the firm know why you want to work with that firm in that location, and make sure the firm has (or should have) a practice in your field of expertise.  Make sure you address your letter to a person who has hiring authority.  It is very helpful to have a recommender who his known to the firm, and to be familiar with landmark cases handled by the firm. Obviously, if you have sent out 300 resumes, you haven’t done any of this. Oh - also be sure you do not have a single error in your resume.

  36. Posted by Rich F. - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 55 minutes ago

    Sorry about the typo in my previous response.

  37. Posted by Exactly the Same - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 54 minutes ago

    I saw this headline and I’m not surprised.  I too have sent out EXACTLY 300 resumes so far since August and have received EXACTLY one interview, and nothing came of it.  I’m at a second tier school very near the top ten percent of my class.  To anyone who graduated in the 80’s and insists we need to “work connections” or that we’re complaining too much, bear in mind that a lot of us (like me) are carrying a six-figure load of debt on our backs, and not all of us are fortunate enough to come from well-to-do families.  I network by emailing alumni I’ve never met and depending on my former bosses to fish out my resume, but it’s a brick wall out there.  The only people I’ve seen succeed are those at the very top of their class, and those lucky enough to come from families with connections (even if their grades are sub-par).  It’s survival of the haves over the have-nots right now.

  38. Posted by Stop going to law school - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 51 minutes ago

    Why would someone go to law school and incur that kind of debt?

    Why not work for a few years in whatever you got your undergrad degree in first and earn some money and experience?

  39. Posted by Earned it! - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 44 minutes ago

    I’m tired of winy little sissy’s that say they “deserve” a $ 160,000.  You have to earn it, wimp!  I came out of law school with a new divorce and death of my mom in the last year.  I was virtually homeless.  I applied for a state job and got hired as a public defender in Kentucky earning $40,000.  Worked there for a year for the experience and then opened my own office.  I have EARNED a six figure income ever since and I don’t think I “deserve” it, I EARNED it!  Quit your whining and asking for a handout!  Get out there and make yourself instead of relying on someone else to do it for you. Wimp.

  40. Posted by Jonathan - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 42 minutes ago

    Reading some of these responses makes me me think people may be right about us lawyers - we are kind of elitist jerks

  41. Posted by Anonymous - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes ago

    Response # 29 from above Marilyn Mann:

    Interesting insight into the LL.M market.  I am curious what your agency’s area of practice is.  Many law professors have LL.M’s, and most of those professors come from top schools and had top grades.

  42. Posted by change is here - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 37 minutes ago

    We deserve free health care, free college education, managible mortgage rates, etc.

    The era of King George is over.  Americans will now get what we deserve.

    A law school degree equals at least $100,000 a year salary.

  43. Posted by Justin - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 35 minutes ago

    I’m graduating this December….for three years I have been preaching to my law school and friends that who you know is more important than a 4.0!!!  The proof is in the pudding, I have a 2.8 and have 4 offers because of who I know.  Remember, passing the bar equalizes everyone….then you prove yourself in the trenches like everyone else.  Law school is a big prep for the bar, that is it!!! be smart and get to know people over the 3 years you have in school.

  44. Posted by Nassar El Sadeem - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 34 minutes ago

    Go to the BLS website and look at the job prospects manual they have under the lawyer job heading.  It basically states that the demand for attorneys is relatively healthy and growing with the population but calls job prospects “keen”, meaning there is intense competition to get a job.  The 92% number in this article is probably derived from the US News rankings, which are taken from LSs inflated numbers both in salary and % in the field.  Here’s another figure- at 5yrs after graduation only about 50% of LS graduates are practicing law.  Prospective students are handed a crock by the LSs… that’s the only reason I can think someone would spend $100k to get a job that averages $50k.  I agree with the above comments on going solo right after graduating- it’s not really an option with a $100k loan on your back and is a malpractice suit waiting to happen- I run into these clowns from time to time and wonder how they’re still in business.

  45. Posted by Responding to Justin - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes ago

    Justin, I appreciate your candor, but that makes me sick.  A lot of us don’t have the luxury of your connections, and can’t make them so easily.

  46. Posted by Barry McCarthy - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes ago

    I plan to graduate law school in the future. I will work for myself from home. There is no fear of no job.  A good criminal defense lawyer will always be neede with our nation of criminal laws.

  47. Posted by Dan - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 25 minutes ago

    Maybe he should have sent out 50 resumes and taken a little more time to craft each one to the employers.

    I got a decent job right out of law school this year (before graduation, actually) in a very specific geographic area (because I own a home), and I sent maybe 10 resumes out.  The key is persistence.  I simply would not stop following up until I was face to face with the hiring partners, and then I would not stop until they gave me a decision.

  48. Posted by Here Here - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Earned it hits the nail on the head.  A degree from a top tier LS doesn’t mean jack in these times.  Where do you get your $160K?  From the large corporate firms.  What do you give for that?  Your life.  You’re subject to their whims and turns in fortune. Read: Disposable.  You can take control of your destiny but you won’t be doing it sucking on the $160K teat.  Readjust your sights,  Quit whining - it’s so uncool. Put on the hip-waders and get involved in the street-level practice of law.  Imagine that - having to deal with commoners in such banal endeavors as divorces and criminal cases.  If you ‘ve got anything more going for you than the fancy sheepskin,  you’ll do fine—eventually.  The times they are achangin’

  49. Posted by ABA is a Monopoly - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 17 minutes ago

    The situation is going to get a lot worse. Law firms are laying off experienced associates, which means that there are fewer jobs and more competition against experience attorneys. Brace yourselves, may some of you can go back to school and getting a useful degree like an MBA. Great, Great Depression her we come…

  50. Posted by Jason - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 12 minutes ago

    2008 is a different market.  Everyone that think this guy can just “network” his way to a job, is clearly misguided. 

    The big 4 has stopped hiring entry level jobs.  Law firms have closed their doors to entry level candidates not at one of the top 5 schools.  It is extremely rough out there. 

    The problem is not the individual.  The problem is our profession.  More than 40,000 jobs are outsourced each year.  Jobs that would have gone to entry level attorneys.  Read the recent WSJ article about the subject.  It is sad.

    Our profession is becoming even more pathetic.  Something needs to done to decrease the supply of attorneys and/or increase the number of jobs. 

    Instead of increasing your profits per partner or maintaining your profits per partner at 1.5 million, lowering it by 20% to hire an extra 20 people would be right thing to do. 

    Never has the profession been so bleak.

  51. Posted by annie from atlanta - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Don’t despair. I, too, went to a top 20 school. While looking for a job 17 years ago, I took a temporary job as a legal courier. I learned the city, the law firms, courts, and how to park for free almost anywhere in Atlanta.  Yes, I sent out resumes and went on interrviews, but ultimately got a job from someone I got to know as a result of the courier job. Over the last 17 years later, I have worked for two firms and even ran my own firm for 7 years.  You are in charge of your destiny. Resumes are boring to read - personal contacts and luck have a lot to do with it. Also, most lawyers don’t make the big bucks we all r ead about.

  52. Posted by Deb in Ohio - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 9 minutes ago

    In response to the question of why someone would go to law school and incur that kind of debt…I did work after college for 5 years, THEN went to law school in the evening.  I had work experience, a full time job, went to a 2nd tier law school in Chicago, graduated with average grades, and had very specific goals for why I was attending law school.  By the time I graduated, the economy had deflated (2001-2002) and despite having worked in various areas of law before and throughout law school, I still had trouble finding a job.  I did hang out a shingle, took a low paying law job in a different area than I had planned, put my loans on deferment, worked 3 jobs at a time and survived.  My mistake was then taking off a couple years to have children and move to another state with my husband - now I am back to square one with no network, no alums in my area, and no response to my numerous resumes submitted by email, mail, recruiter, you name it.  So, I have done everything you all are suggesting - got experience first, worked in a law firm throughout law school, hung out a shingle, expanded my areas of law and even looked in-house.  I’m to the point where I may have to take a non-law job to pay my bills (which we all know completely screws up your future law career).  I haven’t looked for hand outs and I’ve busted by butt to create my career.  It DOES suck out there for anyone looking for a job as an attorney right now!

  53. Posted by Ted - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 8 minutes ago

    This would never happen to Doctors, Engineers, or other similarly situated professions. 

    Please tell me that someone that went to law school, graduated, and went to a decent LLM program, should be unemployed? 

    This young man, might not be Cravath material, but he is in the top 5% of the work force, as far as education and probably intelligence. 

    It is time to limit the amount of attorneys entering law schools, and eliminate outsourcing. 

    Any other ideas would be welcome.  If we do not do anything, the glut will continue to get worse.  The profession will continue to decline, and we will be stuck holding a degree that is largely laughed at.

  54. Posted by Appalled - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 5 minutes ago

    Exactly the same is right.  I have networked and networked and networked.  I have met the right people who have been impressed with my resume and passed it on to more of the right people.  Like “Exactly the Same” I have also hit a brick wall.  Those of you who blame Andrew Magdy for not having a job because he must have had a bad g.p.a. or has gone to an “inferior” school or has not searched correctly, I say find something better to do with your time than tearing other people down.  Did you ever consider that perhaps Mr. Magdy did not want to go to Harvard?  In fact, for those of us without trust funds that would be irresponsible debt management.  For those of you who think the K-JD route is not the correct route, I say that the opposite could also be true.  Why would you work for a while before law school and disrupt your life and steady income?  Perhaps you didn’t figure out what you wanted to do with your life as early as Mr. Magdy.  Maybe instead of wasting your time chastising those of us who are having difficulty in our job searches, you could instead think of something useful to say.  Perhaps you have some openings at your firm?  Or would l need to go to Harvard Law School before you would read my resume?

  55. Posted by Stone - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 3 minutes ago

    The whole thing reads disgusting. Some bad karma and finger pointing by the “know it all crowd,” instead of giving the kid encouragement to hand in there.

    This industry has begun a massive revolutionary change. Kids coming out today wont just be attorneys in their lives, they will be hybrids, doing other jobs outside of law and also practicing.

    Some of you are type that make people justified in thinking attorneys are azz holes

  56. Posted by steve - 1 month, 2 days, 13 hours, 2 minutes ago

    Monopoly- I second your thoughts.  The economy is really bad now, but it is going to blow up sometime in 09.  Too much pressure and uncertainty in every sector I can think of.

  57. Posted by B. McLeod - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes ago

    Did somebody say that it would be easy?

    “Earned it,” that’s what I’m talking about!

  58. Posted by bubba - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 57 minutes ago

    “but he is in the top 5% of the work force, as far as education and probably intelligence…”

    Just because we go to law school doesn’t mean we are smarter than the guy in a factory.  3 years of law school doesn’t make you intelligent.  It only prepares you to be a lawyer.  Saying those who have an advanced degree are more intelligent is ellitisim at its worst.

    Maybe some of you should have gone to med school.  More demand for docs and nurses than lawyers.

  59. Posted by Ronnie - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 56 minutes ago

    Ted,

    Don’t be so sure about that.  This does happen to doctors, engineers, etc.  I know; I’m married to one and know plenty of others in the same position.  The problem is that we don’t read their boards about doctors who don’t match into a program and then have to wait a year to reapply and find a job in the interim, which can be just as hard as the legal profession. 

    I don’t know what to say about the legal profession; I sent out 512 resumes, got 6 interviews,  have been at the same firm for over two years, and did contract work for a year prior to finding this job, so I understand this man’s plight.

    I think a shingle may not be a bad idea.  The key is to find a mentor to help avoid the pitfalls that happen to so many young attorneys without a wealth of experience in their respective field.  I wish this man good luck.

    And, before anyone jumps on my behind, I went to a top tier school and graduated with $205k in debt, so I know exactly where this young man is coming from.  GET A DEFERRAL OR A FORBEARANCE!!!

  60. Posted by Richard - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 56 minutes ago

    Marilyn Mann and Patrick:  So just because someone chose not to go to Harvard or Michigan or had that choice thrust upon them, they shouldn’t be a lawyer?  I could think of 45-50,000 valid reasons to not go to a school like that.  I got into Vandy and Emory, but instead chose to go to Ole Miss because I weighed the benefit of paying 30K+ a year versus the 5000 I ended up paying, and I happen to think I’m a damn fine lawyer.  Granted this also allowed me to be debt free within three years of graduating and I can now enjoy the benefits and job flexibility of not having student loan payments.  State schools all across this country graduate good lawyers who fill a need in their communities.  No they probably won’t get a job on Park Avenue or Wall Street, but denegrating an attorney based on his law school choice is very elitist.  Just ask the Yale graduate who my friend from LSU just beat in trial.

  61. Posted by Dr. - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 55 minutes ago

    Go do contract work reviewing documents for litigation.  There are always people hiring for that until you land on your feet.

  62. Posted by Michael L. Snider - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 55 minutes ago

    What new law school graduates are learnng is what most folks learned long ago in the school of hard knocks.  Nobody owes anybody a job opportunity, whether you finished first, in the top 10 or the bottom 10 or the middle of your class.  You must postpone instant gratification, work your way up and prove your worth to hiring attorneys and their clients.
    I landed my first job out of law school at a prestigious Midwest law firm by asking the interviewing partner about the work in his practice.  He mentioned a thorny medical malpractice issue, and I asked if I could help by wrtiting a legal brief for his case.  I did the research spending a long day in the library, cranked out a tight legal brief a day later and sent it to him.  I got the job over forty other appicants, a few of whom were from my law school and ranked higher than I in our graduating class.  Sending out lots of resumes is only one step in the right direction.
    You may have to take a lower paying job, live frugally and must be willing to learn to earn.  Then after you have taken your lumps enough to avoid legal malpractice, say seven years or so, you can start your own firm and reap the rewards.  There is no substitute for diligent, hard work in any endeavor and, above all, this is required in the practice of law.
    Never give up, always be determined to create your opportunities and you wiill get them.
    Mike from Wichita.
    Hard work

  63. Posted by Frederick - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 53 minutes ago

    Perhaps all of these talented young people should avoid law school altogether and instead channel their energies into government (state or local)  or politics.  Imagine if we had local and state governments filled with idealistic bright people, instead of the burned out mental midgets that occupy those decent paying jobs now.

  64. Posted by Go buckeyes - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes ago

    Do Wayne State or U of Detroit grads have a hard time find jobs or is it just MSU and Cooley students?

  65. Posted by The Bard - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 50 minutes ago

    The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers…..

  66. Posted by P - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 45 minutes ago

    Too many responses to read!
    I have the same problem that this guy has. Firms are not hiring! Too many graduates out there.
    What do you think Ellen?

  67. Posted by Anonymous - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes ago

    The military is looking for lawyers.  Former JAG officers have an extra network when they get out - other former military plus the thankful Americans who want to reward them for their sacrificial service.  I am not a recruiter, but someone who was in the service and would return as a JAG officer if my age wasn’t a barrier.

  68. Posted by Chris - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 42 minutes ago

    ABA accreditation is becoming meaningless. Also meaningless (misleading, even) is LSAC’s repudiation of law school rankings. I took it seriously, and picked a tier 4 over a tier 1. Why? Financial reasons!!! (Not only was the school cheaper, it was offering me a partial scholarship.) Well, turns out, law school rankings really do matter on resumes.

    But ultimately, what REALLY matters, as others said, is networking. And I don’t mean giving out your card at bar meetings. I mean hanging out with other (employed) lawyers. A good resume always helps; but it is rarely a sufficient or necessary condition for employment.

  69. Posted by Anon - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 38 minutes ago

    Eventually the ABA’s chickens will come home to roost.

    From the LSATS to accreditation of 1000’s of law schools while encouraging states to make bar exams harder and more expensive as loopholes widen to allow jobs shipped overseas…

    The ABA has been no friend to lawyers or the profession. 

    Seeing how messed up the whole thing was, despite being an honors student on law review, I decided not to practice upon graduation.  I took the bar exam for fun, didn’t study, and moved out of state.  (I had already paid for the exam and barbri - figured why not?)

    The ABA knows that its screwed things up which is why its going to unveil a new job board in an effort to show its members it pretends to care about them.  What good is a job board if there are 100 jobs for 100000000 lawyers?

    I’m in the private sector now.  I dont work 65 hours a week for some crappy barely above retail wage.  It took a long time to get in (a year) but I’m far better off than my friends who also graduated with honors and couldn’t find jobs above what they were doing as a 1L and get paid half as much for twice the work.

  70. Posted by Another Way - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes ago

    Time to grow up gang! My heart goes out to you. I have been on the unemployment line once in my life. But stop this entitlement nonsense. No degree “guarantees” $100K+ to start. If that is why you went to Law School you have been had. Nowadays that kind of money needs to be earned through value-added experience and production. I work for a top 5 law firm as a senior paralegal with a extensive business experience in insurance, securities and business developemnt. I bill more hours than most associates per year and at a lesser rate because I do not have a law degree. But I do everything muti-year associates do and more for our litigation practice. I am disciplined and self-motivated.  And, yes, for 100+K a year. And in todays crazy market I have become the best thing since sliced bread in the law practice. Recruiters are begging me to switch firms. Experienced in an industry (15+ years), billable at an attractiver rate to the clients and seasoned enough not to feel entled just because I hold several degrees (three degrees). Wake up gang ... get your foot in the door and show them your value and then the money will come. They have begged me to go to law school ...but I decided not to incurr the massive debt ... I proved my value without the law degree and the money came. While much less than I made as an excutive in the corporate world, I made sacrifices and retooled but I am happy with my positioning especially with layoffs and no jobs for graduates. Finally, you ARE NOT your degree. Look inward to determine what you have to offer to an employer .... they are not hiribng you so you can pay off your debt (that is your problem not theirs)... They will selectively hire those who can tell them what you can do for the employer. Best of luck to all.

  71. Posted by Ronnie - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes ago

    Dr.,

    People are right when they say the economy is in the tank.  Where I live, Northern Virginia, they’re not even hiring for THAT anymore!!  (Generalization, of course, but I have a LOT of friends who can’t get a temp job, and they’re with 8-10 agencies.)

  72. Posted by Anon - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 35 minutes ago

    LOL@ Mike Snyder.

    “I had to compete with FORTY people!  IM IN KANSAS!!!!! STOP YOUR WHINING EVERYONE ELSE!”

    You’d get eaten for lunch in any state who graduated more lawyers each year than the number that practice law in Kansas.

  73. Posted by Anon - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes ago

    Yes another way, tell that to all the people who are competing for 40k a year jobs that wont even pay their bills let alone their loans.  You think this is about entitlement?  People cant even find the door to get their foot into it.

    Talk about out of touch.

  74. Posted by Anonymous - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 33 minutes ago

    Post # 69

    The ABA has accredited fewer than 200 law schools.

  75. Posted by ABA is a monopoly - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 32 minutes ago

    Mark my words, The DOJ will eventually require the ABA to wither give up their accreditation or break it up to introduce competition.

  76. Posted by Jose - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 32 minutes ago

    What till the democratic congress decides not to bail out the Big 3.  I guess they gave all of our tax money to their friends on wall street.  The market will really go in the dumper then especially in places like MI.

  77. Posted by law school or not - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 31 minutes ago

    u can make $35,000 a year being a store manager of McDonalds without going to law school and getting lots of debt.

  78. Posted by Responding to the thread - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 26 minutes ago

    I graduated in may from what is considered a tier four school. Looking back, it appears to have been the worst decision of my life. I recently passed the Texas Bar Exam and I am desperately looking for a job. I have applied everywhere, but nothing is working. The DA’s office is not working, private firms are not working, government jobs are not working, I am stuck. I graduated and I am stuck with 100,000 in student loans. I watch my college friends with Engineering degrees and Nursing degrees enjoy their lives, and wonder why can’t I even get a temp job. Contract agencies are not hiring, nothing’s working out. If anyone has any substantial advice please respond. I am at my wit’s end. Please note that I have already applied at the mall stores, but I am apparently over qualified.

  79. Posted by Ronnie - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes ago

    #78, take off the JD from your resume and talk as little about it as possible.  I work part-time in a mall store too, but you have to really explain that you won’t bounce immediately if you get a job.  I got my full-time position one month after I started working at Sephora in 2006, but I’m there until the end of the year because I didn’t want to come and go that quickly.  I appreciated the opportunity to have a job at all!!  Keep your head up.

  80. Posted by ABA is a monoploy - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes ago

    If law school cost $20k, then a 40k salary would be able to pay for the loan. With the ABA this cannot happen. One of the silly aba requirements is that schools have a library with over 200k books. All of the cases in those books are available on lexis. When I was in LS, the LS provided full lexis and west, for $40 a year!!! I never stepped into the library. It costs a ton to maintain a libray, also required are tenured prffessors that get paid in accordance to the ABA (i think the DOJ told the ABA that this was illegal though). but you see they are a sham.

  81. Posted by Stone - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 21 minutes ago

    A lot of you completely miss it out there. This guy and the thousands in his spot aren’t asking for 100k/yr, they’re not asking for 70k, they’re asking for ANYTHING livable and it’s not out there right now.  Come on, clue in.

  82. Posted by Tax LL.M. - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 19 minutes ago

    Law school should be open to all who are willing to dedicate the time and debt required to endure three or four years of mind boggling education.  I am currently earning my LL.M. from one of the top tier schools (already secured a job).  I graduated from a law school that was on the lower end of the top tier schools. 

    In my view the problem is not necessarily the schools taking on more students or the ABA accrediting so many schools.  I believe the problem is students feeling entitlement.  I witnessed many students who came to class unprepared and passed when called upon to add to the class discussion.  I question how much the students actually learned.  It is as if they pay their money to purchase a degree certificate rather than to learn the law.  Now when asked to participate in a tax discussion they are unable to do so thus no job. 

    The $160K paid for law school is not so the student can earn $160K coming out of law school.  The $160K paid for law school is to learn how to think like a lawyer and work on their way to earning the big bucks.

    Also - if you were to compare lawyers with doctors.  Doctors coming out of med school earn $40,000 their first 3 years in residence which required working 80 hours a week.  If a law graduate would be willing to invest three years doing non-profit or gov’t working 80 hours a week - they most likely will earn more than 40K and also become able enough to demand the big bucks.

  83. Posted by Stevie B - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 18 minutes ago

    A. There was a recession in effect when I graduated from BYU law some years ago.  A solution some of my classmates took was:
    1. form their own firm,
    2. hire a more experienced attorney to serve as their mentor,
    3. start dredging for clients.
    The succeeded, their firm grew over the following decade.
    This is legal for lawyers

    BUT
    Now that I’ve graduated from Med School also, I’m finding job market really bad.  Unfortunately I had to go overseas to get my MD because age discrimination is rampant in US med school system where it is illegal…but less common overseas where it is legal!

    MD residency is required to get a license, no hanging out a shingle up front.
    For MD Residency jobs they CHARGE $25 to apply to EACH program.
    I’ve sent over 300 applications.  Expensive.
    3 interviews so far….season almost over
    The cause:
    too many J-1 and H-1 B visas.
    Only half of US citizens with ECFMG certification got jobs last year
    The situation is getting worse because England clamped down—they now require the work permit or visa FIRST, instead of the US plan of hiring on the assumption that the visa will be automatic.

  84. Posted by Don't know what youre talking about - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 14 minutes ago

    I’m completely taken aback by anyone who points to their own experience and then claims we’re whiners.  Do you watch the news?  Have you read the other posts on this thread?  Things are as bad as they’ve ever been, so you have no clue what you’re talking about.  It’s easy to assume we’re not willing to work hard, but some of us (including me) have already worked like mad, then moved into law school to try to make a better life for ourselves and our families.  We’re doing our best to earn it, but the opportunities just aren’t there right now.  Hang a shingle?  Get real - too much debt.  Make face time?  How?  We’re trying, but no one’s listening. Don’t assume that because we’re here venting our frustrations that we’re not trying to earn it, and don’t assume that you have any understanding of the current legal marktet - you don’t.  Most of us aren’t complaining that we can’t find a 100k job - we just want A job to keep a roof over our own heads and the heads of our families.  If you can’t sympathize with our plight, I don’t know what to do for you.

  85. Posted by Matt - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 12 minutes ago

    I too was looking for a job- I did not graduate from the top 50% of my class. However, grades, and the law school you went to do not matter. What matters is your ability to interact with people. I sent out many resumes. I realized that was pointless, so I went down to the court house and began buying any attorney lunch that would go out with me. Eventually I built up a network and started my own firm which is successful. - There is the secret folks - have fun with it! – o yes- as you get going replace attorney lunches with client lunches. The first six months sucks, but it gets better!

  86. Posted by Doc. - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 12 minutes ago

    #78 - what is your background.  I know a couple small firms in Texas who are looking for part time contract corporate transactional help.

  87. Posted by The Facts.... - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 9 minutes ago

    First, anybody trying to figure out exactly why this gentleman cannot find a job is guessing and that is all.  However, any student considering law school should have done their own individual research about the job market.  Not just reading a few “questionable” statistics online, but speaking to practicing attorneys and firms.  “Networking” is the KEY! Any person with common sense knows that!  From a job at Burger King to one at a top firm, who you know means a lot.  And sometimes it is the only thing that will get you the interview.  Many are eager to jump on this poor guy for going to MSU! Come on, I personally know students from “Michigan” and other top schools that cannot perform even basic lawyering skills and who have come to firms and fell on their ass.  It is a question of dedication and hard work, and sometimes brains aren’t enough.  That is what the firms are figuring out, and it is about time! Stay positive and keep Networking! You never know who you will meet.  I am from Michigan, and when I was in Vegas on vacation at a blackjack table I met 3 practicing attorneys from the Detroit area.  Each gave me their business card and I have kept in contact with each.  There are jobs out there, you just have to find them which unfortunately can take time. Good luck, and don’t let these other pessimists get you down!  Oh, and NEVER send a resume via email !

  88. Posted by Too many law schools - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes ago

    Michigan already has a problem with too many lawyers.  It is called Thomas Cooley.  Aren’t they opening a campus in GR and one in Oakland county.  They take everyone that breathes.  Lawyers are a dime a dozen in MI.  I know insurance defense guys who lose work because clients think $75 an hour is too much for them to bill an hour as there are hundreds of lawyers willing to do it for $50 an hour.

  89. Posted by Lauren - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 6 minutes ago

    I’m always amazed by the idiotic chatter articles like this one attract.

    I attend a fourth-tier law school, currently a 2L. I’m nowhere near the top of the class (happily at 50%), but I am on a top-ten moot court team and recently won my trial advocacy competition. However, I know that this won’t get me a job, either in this economy or two years from now. That’s why I took an unpaid externship, found my own part-time clerking job, and will be finding another unpaid internship for this summer. And, I add to my resume and overall portfolio by doing volunteer work, applying for scholarships, and enter in writing contests. It may not make up for my grades or T4 status, but it does set apart my resume from other applicants.

    Law school graduates have to smarten up and realize that a job is not going to be handed to you, even if you’re a T1 graduate. You have to network, use legal staffing resources, do unpaid internships, i.e. get your face out there. EVERYONE is in a bad position right now because of the economy, and whining about it doesn’t make it any better. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, stop blaming the ABA, and stop relying on your sense of entitlement.

    The ABA has accredited only 200 law schools. Please note it is NOT the ABA who ranks law schools, but the arbitrary U.S. News & World report - and plenty of schools, even those in T1, have rejected its projections. I didn’t get the highest LSAT score I could have, but I made it to the law school I’m at, and I am very content there. I’m not assuming that every T1 (or T2 or T3) is a snob, but the audacious posts on this board really do not leave me with any other available conclusion.

    Finally, to the “Michigan resident”: MSU College of Law is a well-respected law school, with a well-respected moot court team. Perhaps you should put yourself more in touch with reality. As another Michigan resident, I am well-aware that MSU, like Michigan, Cooley, UDM and Wayne State are the prominent law schools in my state. Turn on the light bulb, buddy!

  90. Posted by New Atty - 1 month, 2 days, 12 hours, 4 minutes ago

    I feel for all of you.  I worked as a secretary through school and took on a 2nd job as a legal intern(free) for two years straight.  It meant no sleep,but it was what I wanted.  I know that each person has to follow their own dream.  If you want to practice law, please don’t give up.  I finally hung out my shingle.  I have a creative firm which brings in “associates” who have their own buisness, but I do the advertising and filter the clients.  It helps them not expend so much money on advertising and all the other little things.  The firm is starting to take off, but still every month it is a struggle to ensure that rent is paid.  I pray for all of us, because one resource said that people are NOT getting divorced b/c of the bad economy.  Usually bad financial times send people that way (not to wish that ppl breakup) but practically it means that we won’t be able to have as many cases. 

    All the way around the economy is effecting those out there and people who have jobs or got them easy feel lucky and be kind.  Others don’t.  I for one applied for a job I was SIOOOOO over qualified for….w/in 15 mins I was rejected.  I was crazed about it, but it was the final straw to start my practice while staying at my present job.  It worked and now I am out on my own, but working hard to make it work.  KEEP YOUR HEADS UP PLEASE!!!

    Lastly,  There are those of my friends who have found that law was not what they wanted.  Many moved into other industries to find that they LOVE the jobs they have.  Try out the unusual and see if you like it.

  91. Posted by Tax LL.M. - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 53 minutes ago

    What I would like to see is more non-profits set up to assist the poor and even the lower end of the middle class The non-profits can offer law students a job at a modest salary and provide them with valuable experience so they can go earn the big bucks later on.  Trying to get paid $160K while not knowing how to draft a legal document just is not going to work.  But earning 40 or 50K while learning how to draft a legal document for someone who cannot afford to pay $200 an hour is realistic.  How about $10 billion dollars to set up and fund these legal clinics instead of $25 billion to the auto industry?

  92. Posted by Todd - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 42 minutes ago

    Having a law license is a gold mine!  Why would you send out a single resume?  Why give some partner a part of what you earn?  I ran a couple of cheap advertisments in free newspapers and started meeting potential clients at Starbucks.  These were low income clients who really needed help so I took time to answer their questions.  It took six months to get up to the six-figure level but I have more paying business than time.  The key is how you treat clients.  Return their phone calls.  Call them every week to update them.  Be nice.  Be humble.  Work hard.  In return you will have more referrals than you can service.  Success as an attorney and in life depends more on your skill as a human than on your skill as an attorney.

  93. Posted by bond - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 39 minutes ago

    Maybe he should find out if a firm is hiring before sending out his resume.  Law is not for the lazy.

  94. Posted by nola1013 - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 35 minutes ago

    There is no where in the country that a law degree equates to a $100,000 salary. People who think that have no idea what young lawyers are up against.  Clients only want experienced lawyers to handle their files.  Law school grad without experience in a firm have no idea how to handle a file or write a contract.
    It takes grit, determination, and hard work to be a successful lawyer.  A degree is nothing without that.

  95. Posted by Donna - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes ago

    First off, I have a friend who graduated from Seattle U last December who walked straight into a $100,000 year job at a big firm, so it does happen.  Second, I started a program at SU called “Take an Attorney to Dinner” where no more than six students take an attorney to dinner and get to talk to the person and find out all about their career and they always make a connection.  I have had to cancel several of these because students won’t do it.  I have no doubt I’ll find a job after graduation (I’m a 2L).  Many of these lawyers have offered me a job to work under them once I graduate, and I have made a relationship with one of them to work as a Rule 9 this next summer.  Students spend too much time reading and not enough time networking.  The students who come to the dinners are almost always the same people, and I’d bet my left leg these students will get a job after graduation.

  96. Posted by felixfrankfurter - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 23 minutes ago

    To Lauren, #89: Wow, you make me ashamed to be a law student. I am a 3L with more experience in law and in life than you and I would never presume to tell the law school graduates and attorneys on this board how to get a job. The “sense of entitlement” people have spoken so much about in this thread is matched in odiousness by your sense that you know enough to criticize people with more experience than you. You are the reason people hate lawyers.

  97. Posted by JME - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 16 minutes ago

    I don’t know what tier my school is, I don’t care.  It is the only one in the state, and all our state Supreme Court Justices graduated from it.  Pays to graduate in your home state.  I live in a small town, run my own office in another small town - 30 mile commute because there were exactly ZERO lawyers in the town where I have my office.  Now there is ONE.  My concern is advertising so people know I exist.  I don’t figure to get rich, my loans are currently in forebearance, but even so, there is only $88,000 or so.  I won’t see a profit for a while, but I am getting by.  The economy has not tanked in the upper mid-west, the two nearest cities have a 3.6% and a 2.9% unemployment rate, if I recall last weeks statistics.  I am building relationships in the local business community, and am sure I will get by, even though this year I won’t be doing much for Christmas, since I just got started.

  98. Posted by Donna - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 15 minutes ago

    #96 - how do you know you have more experience in law and life than Lauren?  I’m a 2L, but am 38 years old.  You have no idea how old she is or what experiences she has had.  Your note is also overly nasty.

  99. Posted by Lauren - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Felix (#96):

    I’m offering my advice, from what I’ve found works from my perspective. And I was criticizing the people were using the ABA as a scapegoat, and relying on the “promised land” of jobs and salaries so many law students exist post-graduation despite a depressed economy.

    I didn’t include that I have previous work experience, my pre-law school education, or some of my other academic accomplishments. Yet, you assumed that you have “more experience in law and in life” than I. How can you be so sure?

    I’m so glad you think I’m the reason people hate lawyers - I thought it was the outrageous amount they charge for billable hours! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

  100. Posted by CJT - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 11 minutes ago

    Donna #95

    What a great program!!!  Ohio is trying to do something like that with a mentoring type program for new lawyers.  I’m very much looking forward to trying it.

    To everyone else,

    Take a deep breath.  The economy sucks for everyone right now.  It will get better although it will take a few quarters.  This board is a good place to vent, but don’t let it get you down.  Remember, most legal jobs are never posted on job boards and are obtained by who you meet.

  101. Posted by JD better than no JD - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 9 minutes ago

    # 70 - I have a law degree.  I sure better be making more than a paralegal, no matter what their experience.  You say we should grow up?  Come on.  You don’t do 1/2 the work of an associate, and quite frankly, I’m offended that any paralegal thinks they know how to do what the rest of us JDs do.  With a JD, we are being paid for our mind, our ability to think, and our ability to get the job done.  You can’t do our work because you weren’t trained to think like a lawyer.  I highly doubt that any partner in your law firm comes to youa and asks you to figure out some issue that is affecting a multinational multibillion dollar client.  If they do, then you are practicing law without a licencse and someone should report you to the disciplinary board of your state.

    To all others.  I feel the pain of the high loans and low pay.  I think law schools are mostly to blame because they send out packets of misleading information.  If you look at the prospectus from my school, the average starting salary for an attorney with a degree from that school is $93,000/year.  There is no way that is the “average” for my city, or with a degree from that school.  The only people who respond to such inquiries by the school are the ones who are not too embarrassed to write down their salaries on the sheet.  Something has to be done because I doubt any one would want to go to law school if they KNEW it was a crap shoot on whether they were going to be able to pay off the debt that they incurred to go into law school.  If nothing else, it would dramatically reduce admission.

  102. Posted by What - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 9 minutes ago

    To Felixfrankfurther, #89:

    Do you make an effort to be that smug or is it natural?

  103. Posted by P - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 8 minutes ago

    To Lauren!
    #89

    I think you are missing the point here! What you have done as a second year law student is great and would look good on your resume. BUT there are 1000s of other students and new grads with the same credentials in their resumes.

    So I don’t think you should be this confident about your position or call this an “idiotic chatter”!!

    You will know what I’m talking about in a few years when you graduate. So for now, I recommend not disagreeing with those who have already been there and done that, and know how it is really like when you get out. You simply don’t know yet.

    But I do agree that you have to get out there and network. I give you that.

  104. Posted by Ron - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes ago

    #97: Pays to graduate in your home state? Depends on what your home state is, don’t you think?  My home state is California—born and raised.  Don’t think that helps too much, not with 300,000 attorneys already there.  Did much better in VA, thanks so much.

  105. Posted by LLMer - 1 month, 2 days, 11 hours ago

    As a recent LL.M. in taxation grad, I have to feel a little sorry for this guy.  Although I do have some questions as to his application methodology - 300 certainly seems excessive - it is a frustrating experience to shell out money for law school, shell out money for a master’s and then spend the next couple of months home eating soup and avoiding creditors.  Some in the comments section have argued that an LL.M. is unnecessary and although I am biased, I would say its a mixed bag.  If it is pursued simply as a method of putting off the inevitable job search, then it certainly is a waste of money.  But if it is pursued as a result of a real interest in the workings of the IRC, then it is certainly worth it.  Many seasoned attorneys go back and get their LL.M. and plenty of heavyweight tax practitioners already have their LL.M. (or a CPA) nowadays.  The level of specialization is intense and only useful for those who are ok with waving goodbye to most areas of litigation.

    Although I doubt the student who is the subject of this article is reading these posts, I would say to him that the buckshot method of mass mailings doesn’t work normally and certainly won’t in this climate.  You have to either reach out to those in the tax world that you already know (maybe old professors) or cultivate new relationships (perhaps through a state or city bar association) with those you don’t know yet but should.  People don’t want to just see the degree, they want to see that you are truly interested in and dedicated to a specific area of law and that you are level-headed person who would be easy to work with - that’s how people get hired. Just be sure to not get discouraged and don’t be too picky, opportunity comes in many forms.

  106. Posted by Foriegn Educated Attorney - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 58 minutes ago

    I have a law degree from a top British University, am a member of a prestigious Bar and have LL.M.s in Comparative Law and Taxation Law from a top ten rated US Law School - and I won’t be working as an attorney here in the US.

    I got fed up with the Law Job Crap over here and took a job with Boeing - at a higher pay rate than any top firm could pay.  I’ll get to do some interesting work and should be able to get a tax counsel position after a tour overseas using my formal military experience.  It’s better in today’s climate to fall back on previous experience rather than fight a futile fight to get a position at the moment.  Almost half of all my US law school friends are freaking out because they’ve just been laid off.  TImes will get better and armed with that law degree, the experience you bring outside the law should help.  I’d rather eat now and wait rather than sending hundreds of resumes.  BTW 96, you’re really not very nice!

    P.S. forgive any splelling errors, my nine-month- old is bashing the keyboard.

  107. Posted by Wow! - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 54 minutes ago

    #101 - You should go back and read your own post.  Do you really feel entitled to earn more than a paralegal just because you sat in a class room for three years.  Arrogance like yours makes me ashamed to have you in my profession.

  108. Posted by ABA is a monopoly - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 53 minutes ago

    To # 01 or 101 - if a paralegal know more than you, which in most cases is true, you law degree means squat. Why shuod you get more comp? a bit pompous… SO paraleagals, don’t have minds, can’t tink and can’t get the job done… common they do most of the work any how. you also do not need to be a lawer to give your opine on a deal. business people withou law degree do it all of the time.

  109. Posted by Wow #07 - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes ago

    I don’t believe you can sit in a class room for three years and ear a law degree. If that is what you did your school should lose accreditation.
    I’m not trying to be rude I just think it is wrong to say you can sit in a class room for three years and become an attorney. It takes more than that.

  110. Posted by P - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 49 minutes ago

    the post above, #09 is by me to wow #7
    I made a mistake!!

  111. Posted by LuckyMeAndLucktoYou - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 47 minutes ago

    I agree it is not just grades that will land you a job. I am a 3L in the middle of my class and I have a job because I targeted a specific firm my first year, got a summer position, and stayed on by working hard.

    I think perhaps many people who go through law school come from privileged backgrounds and whether there is a connection or not, too many students expect to graduate and have a glamorous job.

    In so far as I can tell, legal work is not glamorous. It is hard and often boring-like other jobs but probably more demanding than the average.

    My advice (if you want it): target specific firms, be prepared to take on responsibility and happily take on undesirable projects once you get an opportunity to prove yourself.

  112. Posted by country girl - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 40 minutes ago

    I graduated in 2007 with awesome internships on my resume, top third of a tier-2.  I feel very lucky to have worked with such accomplished supervisors on socially significant work.  I’m fortunate to have an attractive resume and have been given interviews at every firm I tried. 

    So far, the key has been letting the firm know how I found them, generally through the recommendation of their colleagues, clients, or family members (for example, a friend from undergrad has an uncle…)  ***I call say I heard about their work from ____, and I’m interested in learning more about their practice, and would they spend 20 minutes on the phone or in person with me***  This is the most valuable advice I every received! 

    My biggest problem with the three offers I received from smallish firms over 15 months, I couldn’t afford to accept!  You can’t live on $50,000 in NYC with 6 figure debt, even if you live like a student, and I can’t really uproot my other half, who actually found his (underpaid) dream job in NYC last year. 

    The big firms are cutting, and the small firms are struggling to pay.  So, now what?  I think law school should be less intensive, so that students can work and still get decent grades, and that the tuition charged is embarrassing.  I also think that the firm payscale goes much too high—giving false hope to the many, costing client’s shareholders absurd amounts, and, most importantly, causing schools to compete for professors.  I wonder whether this is a central factor in the cost of school.  Does anyone know?

  113. Posted by Ian - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 36 minutes ago

    #64, I am not sure how much luck Wayne State grads are currently having in this difficult job market, but I am a WSU grad myself and the majority of the 7 lawyers at my small firm are also from WSU.  It’s a great school if you plan to practice locally and don’t want a ton of law school debt.

    I don’t envy attorneys currently entering the market.  I still get calls from headhunters, but I’ve been out over 4 years and have substantial experience in complex commercial litigation and corporate transactional work.  I get the sense that the opportunities that exist right now are for experienced laterals much more than for entry-level attorneys.

    Fact is, those who have noted that there are too many lawyers are correct.  “Typical” starting salaries cited by law schools are a joke - I expect to make six figures this year, but I started out at about $54k (not that I’m complaining, I like my firm and am happy to have a secure job).  The profession really needs some thinning out, and I feel that instead more people than ever are trying to get in.

  114. Posted by B. McLeod - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 36 minutes ago

    It really is nice to see the material in some of these posts today, put out by posters who have had some success, taking a little time to post a note in an effort to help others.  There is a lot of good material in these posts, so I hope the people making the desperate ones are checking back for tips.  I am a little concerned that some posters are rejecting ideas out of hand, without really thinking about them.  Where a poster has taken time to suggest a technique, such as offering to brief an issue for an interviewer, why throw the suggestion out based on where he is from?  Even if you think a given tip (e.g., hanging out a shingle) won’t work in your case, why not try to see if there is a way you could adapt it, or otherwise get to a point where it might work?  Any plan is better than no plan.  If you don’t have any plan, why not try some of these?

  115. Posted by Responding to the Thread - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 29 minutes ago

    #86, I have an undergraduate degree in accounting, worked at a mortgage company interned with the FTC, the OAG’s office and later was a student attorney at our legal clinic. Whatever information you have will be greatly appreciated.

  116. Posted by SE Barrister - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 24 minutes ago

    I graduated from a NON-Accredited law school in May 2006 and I passed the BAR in July 2006.
    I hung my own shingle because no firm wants to interview someone from an unaccredited school.

    Fortunately I have been quite successful, much more than I ever expected, nearing the 200K mark this year.

    So quit whining and make things happen.

  117. Posted by another newbie - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 23 minutes ago

    Thank you, todd (#92)
    I don’t want to do what you do - I’m not the entrepreneuring type, and I’m seeking a more specialized practice, BUT -
    You’re doing what we (the people of this planet) need:  Treating your fellow-humans with respect, using your gifts (intelligence, access to education, human kindness) in the service of others.  In return, you expect and deserve a moderate degree of financial comfort.
    Folks like you should make the rest of us proud.

  118. Posted by another newbie - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 18 minutes ago

    me again.  Some ideas to pass on:

    Several of my classmates make ends meet by working “Of Counsel” for solo and small firms in the area, for example making routine appearances for attys with scheduling conflicts or sick kids.
    I do some side-work as a ghostwriter or Of Counsel for a solo friend who takes appointed crim. appeals. 

    Better to be under-employed than unemployed while you’re still looking.  Also keeps both your resume and your colleague network growing.

  119. Posted by Thompson - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 17 minutes ago

    The best advice these days is simple, be lucky.  Those that have had success had to be lucky at some point.  Without an opportunity, you can be the most capable and prepared prospect in the world, and you will get nowhere.

    Be lucky. Luck is exponential more important than ability starting out in this world

  120. Posted by Brad - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 14 minutes ago

    92% of people finding jobs in their career field my ass.  I guess it might be accurate if you call bagging groceries the typical graduate’s career field.

    Wonder when the ABA will wake up and quit propagating the biggest hoax since the crop circles in England

  121. Posted by Still Struggling - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 11 minutes ago

    I agree with #84.  When I first started law school at a top tier school in 2004, a speaker came to say “Just do your absolute best and try not to worry about where you stand on the grading curve.  You know what the anchor student with the lowest grades will have at the end of 3 years?!  A law degree.  And that person WILL get a job”.  I would really like to speak to that lawyer now.  Do you really see/understand how bad it is right now?!  I went to a top tier school and had average grades, but passed the bar on my first try (but that doesn’t “even out the playing field”).  I secured a temporary contract position which ended when associates were not meeting billable hours and have not been able to secure a single position since.  After sending out over 400 resumes to find that no firm was hiring newbie lawyers, I signed up with every legal placement agency hoping to do contract work only to get consistent responses from them saying “We just don’t have very many document review jobs or contract positions right now.  Things are really slow.”  Ok, so then I signed up with many temp agencies to just do admin work, secretary work, data entry.  Unsuccessful—because I was “overqualified”.  Months passed (and still everyday I spent countless hours a day emailing, calling, networking, talking to other alums and lawyers about the economy, etc.) and I could not make my rent even after deferring all my loans.  I went out and tried to get a hostess or retail job and couldn’t even get that kind of job because the employers felt I was a waste of time/investment thinking I would just leave for a legal job later no matter what I said to the contrary (and I also tried leaving law school off my resume, which was a humiliating step in of itself).  There is no place for newbie lawyers with 1-2 years experience because firms want only a 2L summer associate or a lateral hire with at least 3-5 years experience.  Moreover, all of my jobs in the last 4 years have been at firms or law related so I couldn’t even transition to another field without any relevant field experience.  Do I regret going to law school?!  No.  But do I worry about how I will make rent each month and wonder why I didn’t sign up for welfare and food stamps when I graduated?!  Yes.

  122. Posted by Rob - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours, 8 minutes ago

    #23, actually, I do know a Harvard grad who’s complaining.  He got decent grades—not spectacular, but not terrible—and he’s had exactly zero offers.  He’s actually looking at going into the military to get into a JAG office because he can’t find work in civvy street.

    Admittedly, he’s not a great networker [a bit abrasive at times, and highly principled], but he’s competent as Hell.  Did a great job working for a city prosecutor’s office, but no one seems to be hiring prosecutors right now.

  123. Posted by '08 Wayne Grad - 1 month, 2 days, 10 hours ago

    Both Appalled and Exactly the Same are absolutely correct.  Here’s my rant: #1 law students and new lawyers are successful for the wrong reasons; #2 it’s hard to network or get your foot in the door as a minority &/or woman. 

    I just graduated from Wayne State, I got into a top 50 school out of state but I couldn’t go due to the financial burden and the fact that my in-state family often needs my help and support.  As I struggled to maintain my GPA in the top 25% to keep my full-tuition scholarship, I saw students that were complacently getting B’s and C’s land jobs at big firms or federal clerkships because of their family connections.  I took out loans for housing expenses because I didn’t have the benefit of a trust fund/mommy and daddy paying my rent like many of my peers.  Success in law school itself was related to what connections you had—If you come from an impoverished or lower-class background and no one in your family has even made it to college you were already at a huge disadvantage when you entered law school.  Try figuring out the vagaries of law school and setting yourself up for a professional career when your parents didn’t even graduate high school—the how-to books can only tell you so much and certainly don’t deal with state specifics.  A friend of mine who graduated in the top 25% of our class was recently told at an interview that she was “worthless as a law school graduate” and that the head partner at the interviewer’s firm (who inherited the firm from his dad) didn’t believe in paying new attorneys for 6 months so they can prove they’re hard-working!

    Even worse, as if class-ism wasn’t bad enough on its own, there’s also sexism and a fair bit of racism/xenophobia to deal with.  Try landing an interview when the interviewers can’t pronounce your name, I’ve been told by my Anglo friend who works at a mid-size firm to change my ethnic name because she has seen how minority applicants with ethnic names are often excluded in candidate selection.  Employers may be doing it subconsciously, but they are certainly doing it.  I’ve also been told directly by attorneys that because I was such a petite lady I needed to compensate for it by being louder than my sub-par male counterparts.  Even if all of this is anecdotal, the figures seem to back up my theory. 
    http://www.abanet.org/women/woc/ABALitigationNews-May2008.pdf
    http://www2.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=496255
    The fact is that this field needs to change.  This may not hold true for the top 10% of the class, but for those of us who are above average students but don’t come from the “right” background, we see that our peers succeed for all the wrong reasons.  It seems that the same people that complain about affirmative action or the laziness/whining of the poor or otherwise unfortunate are the ones benefiting not due to their merits but due to the fact that they were born into privilege.  The times are bad enough for all new graduates, but the ones that suffer the most are the ones that worked the hardest to get to law school in the first place.  The unemployed people I know are not asking for $100,000 or more, we are just asking for a decent wage so we can make our loan payments and not worry about our bills.  I would take a public interest job for around $40,000 and other jobs for $55,000+—-but I can’t even get an interview in the first place.  I’ve tried to network, but after making big promises these attorneys seem to drop off the face of the earth—can you seasoned attorneys give me a clue as to why this happens?  I can only follow-up so much before restraining orders are filed against me.  To enough info and Michigan resident—you tell me if I’ve given you enough information and tell me how to find a job.  Rich F—I’d love to see your list, please post it or send it to me.

  124. Posted by you can't go back and change the past, but... - 1 month, 2 days, 9 hours, 51 minutes ago

    So, you can’t go all the way back and change the past and correct those grades or the law school you went to - what is done is done, time to move on and push forward.

    The common point made by many of the veterans of the lawyering world seems to be an emphasis on hardwork to get where you want to be. I don’t know if this will work for others, but when I was still in college, I lucked out and got a summer waitressing job at a golf club. Lucky for me, we were outside NYC and our members were top of their fields (lawyers, doctors, business). When I started, I wasn’t in law school, but I knew I wanted to go - so I talked to the members about it. This summer, I went back part-time, while I did an unpaid internship in the city and babysat for a family (the father who is a lawyer in the city - a lucky break for me there). I wasn’t afraid to talk to the members and get to know them and tell them I was in law school. I got advice and one of the members even asked for my resume so he could forward it to people he knew. Lucky for me, I got a job without the networking, but I guess what I am saying is networking doesn’t always have to be a rigid and formal experience, sometimes what will make you stand out is how you go about it. If you are a recent grad, still looking for a legal job, and don’t have a job - restaurants pretty much always hire - so maybe find out which ones are known for being frequented by the legal community - you may be able to make some connections and at the very least end up with some extra cash in your pocket.

    Best of luck to everyone’s job search, stay positive, you’ll get your break eventually - till then wait tables.

  125. Posted by Lyn - 1 month, 2 days, 9 hours, 47 minutes ago

    It’s stupid and a waste of your time to blindly send out resumes.

    I graduated in 2007 from a 4th tier school with okay grades and had 3 job offers at graduation (including with the JAG corp). A year later I moved to another state and found myself in the job market.

    In the matter of a few months I had over 15 interviews and 7 or 8 offers, 3 from law firms, 1 for an alternative legal position and 4 non-legal positions.

    Perhaps since I worked all through law school that “experience” gave me an edge but I think the ‘secret’ was that I only applied to actual job listsings (on craigslist mostly) and took the time to write a good cover letter and tweek my resume as needed… I only applied to maybe 100 jobs, if that.

  126. Posted by oldtimer - 1 month, 2 days, 9 hours, 29 minutes ago

    These postings are amusing. Perhaps we should limit high school graduation because it is getting tougher to get into college.  Perhaps we should limit college graduation rates because college grads are having trouble finding meaningful employment or getting into grad school.  Sounds like a lot of people wanting to seal the tunnel after they get through it.

  127. Posted by Sarah Hughes - 1 month, 2 days, 9 hours, 19 minutes ago

    As a faculty member who has chaired the career services committee, I support those comments that call sending out a lot of resumes a waste.  The graduate thinks they are engaged in a proactive activity, but it seldom works out well.  In exchange for a lot of tedious work and expense, the grad gets a lot of bad news back in the mail. 

    Make connections with faculty and alumni in two or three cities in which you’d like to practice.

    Do not go with the “I’ll go anywhere and do anything” attitude.  Employers want people who know knowledge or and commitment to their enterprises.  It’s a simple matter of connecting with the right person for advice.

    And, yes, it also is a matter of luck.

  128. Posted by STILLnojob - 1 month, 2 days, 9 hours, 14 minutes ago

    I’m an ‘07 grad from a Top-20 Law School.
    I’ve not only written and sent cover letters + resumes that have been examined by numerous Career Center and other professionals, but have also been networking and trying to use connections. I don’t know how the person who got an interview at every place did so, but I’ve gotten 0 this past year. I’m applying in both the public and private sector and between the economy, hiring freezes, recession cuts, etc, even I as a top-20 grad (and no, I didn’t barely graduate and yes, I did work over summers but not at huge mega firms) am left still looking about 1.5 years after graduation. It’s bad out there people, very bad, and let’s not let this 92% thing fool us…

  129. Posted by j - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 51 minutes ago

    If you graduated before 2000 please don’t comment because times have changed and are completely different then when you graduated. Lets get serious… work is outsourced to contract attorneys and oversees and lawyers are creating websites where work can be done for $50 when it used to require a lawyer’s services. Our society is producing too many lawyers and not enough work. As a profession, we view ourselves in an elitist fashion and never look at our faults. On the other hand, there is a critical shortage of doctors and I have never heard of a doctor struggling to get a job. True they have to do residency but that is just a part of medical education and everyone knows that. ER doctors are in demand everywhere and the starting salary in a medium sized city is close to 200K a year. Basically, our profession (or should I say industry because most of us do not act in a professional civilized manner) is pathetic. Oh by the way, I am not bitter because I have a non law job that pays very very well and am much happier once I left the legal field.

  130. Posted by Old News - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 47 minutes ago

    I networked for three years by working in the ABA LSD and volunteering in other positions to NO avail.  And if you think it’s bad for regul;ar law students try being a minority on top of it.  Not one of my fellow Native American classmates got an interview at a firm - the discrimination is more than obvious, in spite of calls from major corporations for firms to diversify. 

    Try for DC, intern, do whatever you can.  And for those of you who think ABA needs to stop accreditting, apply to be appointed to the Committee on Legal Education and do something about it other than complaining on the ABA Journal website.

  131. Posted by Old News - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes ago

    Still Struggling - that is exactly the same experience I’ve had.  Top 50 school, above a 3.0, involved in ABA LSD and big ABA, five years of legislative experience, and NO interviews.  Contract placement didn’t work, legislative work was slow, election/campaigns had already been staffed, and retail said I was overqualified. 

    Unemployment benefits need to be extended to recent graduates and loan deferments need to be extended to at least two years with no interest. 

    I finally secured a federal position, but networking, mass mailing, and attending ABA events didn’t work.  Don’t even get me started about career services (if there’s an area the ABA needs to consider when acredditing schools it should be the veracity of CSO numbers)...hang in there.

  132. Posted by Cornell - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 40 minutes ago

    go back to medical school…..

  133. Posted by Still looking - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 39 minutes ago

    I graduated from MSU Law as well in 2007 (ranked exactly in the middle of my class, even did clinical work whioe at MSU) passed the Illinois bar and got sworn in about a year ago.  I’ve tried EVERYTHING- networking, sending out “cold resumes,” legal job boards, etc.  I’ve had about 5 interviews- no job.  Let’s not fool ourselves here.  The market is just that bad right now.  Experienced attorneys are getting laid off and law schools are cranking out more and more JDs.  We have a recession and the legal world is just getting saturated with more and more lawyers.  I’m at the point where I seriously have to consider if it’s even worth keeping my law license.  Is it even worth continuing to pay annual bar fees and for mandatory continued legal education with job prospects so bleak?  Why keep up a license I’m not even being given a chance to use?

    By the way, 92%?  Seriously?  Does the ABA really expect us to buy this?

  134. Posted by P - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes ago

    For those like Lauren who don’t think it is that bad out there,

    I have friends that are out of school for 2 years and they still don’t have a job.
    I have been out for a year and I am forced to clerk at a firm that I started working for during my first semester in law school. I make the same hourly rate that I used to make when I first started. Our receptionist at the firm who started at the same time that I started makes more than I do. I have asked! Now go figure.

    My loan payments are due next month and I had to move back to my paren’t house.
    I did graduate in the top 50% with moot court and externships and three years of clerking experience. I tried networking and went to every meeting and event that I could, but when there is no work out there, you don’t get hired!

  135. Posted by '08 Wayne Grad - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 26 minutes ago

    Agree with Old News.  And to “you can’t go back and change the past…”—thank you for your well-wishes and advice to us unemployed.  I did graduate with good grades and have known nothing but hard work all my life.  I have been working since I was 14 and worked throughout law school, one summer I worked for a clinic and worked at a non-profit.  I am currently volunteering so that I am not idle.  Diversity and succeeding despite facing adversity—these are not valued enough by employers. Even the public interest sector can take a clue here, rather than looking just for Ivy league grads, why can’t these employers hire the people they claim to want to help, like people who faced impoverished/otherwise challenging circumstances?

  136. Posted by old news - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 25 minutes ago

    I know three other 07 grads that have either been hired and since laid off or never found a job after graduation and are still looking (all with better grades then me)...it’s terrible out here, Biglaw sucks (with their discriminatory hiring practices and good old boy network), and it’s getting worse. 

    Hope Obama puts some more of us to work investigating polluters, this fiscal crisis, and no-bid contracts.

  137. Posted by Johny Ballgame - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 13 minutes ago

    Start your own firm. 

    Your first case should be a class action against all the law schools for fraud based on false and misleading employment statistics and figures.

  138. Posted by 01 graduate - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 10 minutes ago

    I know that the job market is tough but instead of focusing on the private sector think about working for the public sector such as a public defender’s office.  This gives you a steady income, benefits, no overhead, experience, and most of all you get the needed networking.  Some lawyers spend their entire careers in the public sector and others eventually move on to private practice.  Give it a thought since the private sector is so daunting right now.

  139. Posted by Michael Lehners - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes ago

    There’s nothing wrong with hanging out your own shingle. I am a graduate from an unaccredited school. We were able to petition the state supreme court to allow those graduates who passed the bar to practice. This was in the late 80s. I picked a niche area (bankruptcy) and read all I could about it. I found a local lawyer and offered 20 hours a month billable hours for free rent, phones, copier etc. All income (small as it started) was profit. When business started picking up, my 20 hours was worth more and I ended up paying rent and hiring staff. I never took a partner or an associate and consistently earn between 100 and 150 per year. Best of all, I never had to pay the political games in the firms which my friends did.

  140. Posted by Bochese - 1 month, 2 days, 8 hours ago